Teen Titans

[jmatonak]

So Batgirl wants to kill the guy who's been pumping her full of icky drugs and controlling her mind. I get the feeling I'm supposed to think this is totally unacceptable. I don't.

Some of you may remember the end of the sixth season of Buffy. Willow tortures, skins alive and ultimately incinerates some guy who tried to kill her best friend and wound up killing her girlfriend, among a laundry list of other scummy acts. Everyone of course decides that Willow has become "evil", whatever that means, and needs to be appropriately dealt with. I actually agreed with that last bit and looked forward to her getting her just desserts- of the many options, a pizza party and a nice German beer were my favorites.

Especially in the land of comics, no one is ever supposed to kill, and anyone who does is morally irredeemable. And I wouldn't like to see Superman or Batman (or Buffy or Willow), killing jaywalkers- or even murderers and rapists. Law enforcement should not be personal and should err on the side of caution when it comes to determining guilt. However...

I won't say that we have a moral right to take revenge on those who wronged us. Especially in the real world (as opposed to adventure fiction), that kind of thinking has some definite limitations. But bad people, in fiction and in the world, tend to rely on the idea that they will never really have to face any personal consequences of their actions. All the really heavy shit lands on others, and the perpetrators don't care.

So when Willow kills that guy Warren, or I read Batgirl swearing to kill Deathstroke, my first reaction is pretty simple. I say to myself: you go, Batgirl (or Willow respectively)! How else is he gonna learn?

I know this is a comic, so the "good guys" aren't going to let her do it. Which is too bad. You never really realize you bit off more than you could chew until you start choking.

Comments

[lurkerwithout.livejournal.com]

Wandered by from a link at When Fangirls Attack. *waves*

Actually everyone decided that Willow had gone off the deep end, because AFTER torturing and killing Warren she decided to do the same to Johnathan and Andrew. And suck all the magic out of the various magical beings she could find. Including Dawn. And then figured she'd just blow up everything...

But I agree Warren deserved to die. Maybe not tortured first, but his death was just...

And given Deathstroke's willingness to kill his ex-wife, kids and blow up large cities, I don't think having Batgirl swear vengeance on him worries him much...

[jmatonak.livejournal.com]

Actually everyone decided that Willow had gone off the deep end, because AFTER torturing and killing Warren she decided to do the same to Johnathan and Andrew.

That's arguable. Buffy's initial reaction is shocked, and I always read it as disapproving, but I could be wrong that she disapproves at that point. It is certainly true that Willow's behavior escalates quickly, and goes beyond the point of anything I am prepared to defend.

I can't really get worked up about the torture. I am a little fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing.

And given Deathstroke's willingness to kill his ex-wife, kids and blow up large cities, I don't think having Batgirl swear vengeance on him worries him much...

I'm sure he isn't. I just know that Robin is going to have to come over all shocked and argue with Cassandra about this, and get all sanctimonious, instead of doing the sensible thing and offering to help. :)

Wandered by from a link at When Fangirls Attack. *waves*

When I get a comment from a username I don't recognize, WFA is usually to blame. WFA is cool. :)

Hi! Thanks for commenting.

Here from WFA.

[katarik.livejournal.com]

And given Deathstroke's willingness to kill his ex-wife, kids and blow up large cities, I don't think having Batgirl swear vengeance on him worries him much...

It doesn't. *She* doesn't.

But... Deathstroke didn't kill Adeline. *Starfire* killed Adeline, after her throat had gotten cut so Cyborg could get her blood. (Long story.)

And he only killed Joey because Joey explictly *begged* him to.

Bludhaven... blowing up Bludhaven makes no sense, especially given how he reacted to having any participation in the destruction of Qurac.

I have lots and *lots* of problems with Slade's characterization lately, especially as regards Titans East and Infinite Crisis.

And a big reason it makes no sense for Cass to want to kill Slade is her ability to read the emotions and thoughts of others. *If* she killed him, quite aside from whether she could, she'd feel his death as though she'd done it. I'm not arguing the morality or lack thereof of killing Deathstroke (who is, actually, immortal), I'm saying that it makes no sense for Cass to do it.

Re: Here from WFA.

[jmatonak.livejournal.com]

I have no way of telling what is and isn't in character for Cassandra Cain anymore. My sole objection to this plot twist rests on the probable reaction of the "hero" characters to Cass' human and understandable desire to teach Slade a permanent lesson.

Deathstroke is immortal? That's from the serum as opposed to something mystical? Because I would imagine decapitation and dismemberment, down to the subatomic level if necessary, would suffice to kill him. It would almost certainly fuck up his whole day. :)

*If* she killed him, quite aside from whether she could, she'd feel his death as though she'd done it.

I don't think that's still true. Between her language acquisition, recent traumas including her death, and retcons... I don't think she has that degree of empathy anymore. That's part of why I have no way of telling what is and is not in character for her.

Thanks for commenting!

[timeliebe.livejournal.com]

Actually, I found that arc w/Willow fascinating, largely BECAUSE who could blame her for wanting vengeance on the guy who killed her lover? I didn't even have a serious problem w/Warren's death being slow & painful, Because He Had It Coming, big-time.... And that's why that arc was brilliant, b/c it showed, very clearly, just how corrosive the lust for vengeance can be. By the time Willow was beginning the destruction of the world and almost killed Xander when he tried to talk her out of it, you realized just what the consequences of cheering Willow's vendetta on REALLY were....

If I had any faith at all that the writers here had the talent or moral courage of the four writers who did that BUFFY arc, I'd absolutely tell them to go for it b/c it'd be brilliant. But... given what they've come up with so far, I'm not optimistic. More than likely, Jesse, it'll be just like you say - "We don't kill, Cassandra, because, uh, well, er - we're SUPERHEROES! No further explanation, or at least no further explanation that might actually speak to a wronged person thristing for revenge, need be forthcoming...." ::eyeroll::

Best,
Tim Liebe (http://spousecreature.blogspot.com/)
Dreaded Spouse-Creature of Tamora Pierce (http://www.tamorapierce.com/)
- and co-writer of Marvel's White Tiger (http://www.tamorapierce.com/marvel.htm) comic

[jmatonak.livejournal.com]

you realized just what the consequences of cheering Willow's vendetta on REALLY were....

I didn't, because the escalation wasn't convincing to me. I felt it would have been completely possible for Willow to wreak her completely justified vengeance on one utter scumbag, and then stop- so cheering her on in that did not entail any endorsement of later excesses.

I agree that the Buffy folks were trying for something much closer to what you suggest... and that they did a better job than the Titans folks are likely to. And I enthusiastically join in your ::eyeroll::.

[timeliebe.livejournal.com]

Jesse - I still really liked the escalation of Willow's vendetta. Even if you couldn't quite go for it, you HAVE seen instances where a justified desire for revenge goes 'way out of control. But we can agree to disagree on that one, as I wouldn't want it escalating to one of the other of us attempting to pull up an obelisk that'll destroy the world or anything! :D

So, on a totally unrelated note - whatcha think of Mary Marvel going all evil...which apparently means dressing in tight black minidresses and getting breast augmentation? >:)

Best,
Tim Liebe (http://spousecreature.blogspot.com/)
"I'm a bloodsucking fiend! Look at my outfit!"

[jmatonak.livejournal.com]

I want to approve of tight black dresses, I really do. They are nice. But...

Oy. People have a really tough time doing good Marvel Family stories, is what I think. It so happens that we're talking about a character I like, for reasons I can't really define. (I know "Mary Marvel" is her classic name, but I liked the period in Jerry Ordway's POWER OF SHAZAM run where she was referred to, like her brother, as Captain Marvel.)

I think I'm supposed to start getting all panicky when we see Mary get a little less uptight and start partying more, because once you drink half a beer (or possibly, given that this is Mary Marvel, just sit in a parked car with a boy), bombing orphanages is sure to follow. Then every other character she knows can comment on how her behavior is spiralling out of control, especially after she has that second! beer! OMG!

Then, after she really does do something bad, the story will make sure we all understand the message that hedonism is death.

Bear in mind, I have read *absolutely no* spoilers for this. I'm just cribbing off of *every story in which a female hero is tempted by the dark side EVER*.

People grasp that the big thing behind the Marvel Family characters is being nice, and that they are (in some sense) overgrown children. (I always picture the Batsons as being in junior high, meaning that crushes and such are starting to become a big concern.) But, in an effort to make them "nice kids", writers make them... retarded. The "innocence of youth" doesn't work like many adults seem to wish it does.

I always figured that the "wisdom of Solomon" gave them an adult's perspective on things in their powered forms. But even in costume, the Marvel Family characters are usually depicted in recent years as painfully naive about almost every aspect of adult social interaction... which I *never* understood.

Basically, I'm expecting Mary's adventures to be an after-school special with magic lightning. And already cringing in anticipation.